Question – Have the prices for classic cars gone as nuts in your country as they have here in Australia?
It’s reminiscent of this old classic TV ad from Melbourne back in the early 1990’s (with thanks to Turbin!)
I’ll let you decide for yourself whether or not Madonna had lost the plot back then. But there’s a reasonable argument that sellers and buyers of classic cars – mostly buyers, IF they’re actually buying – have lost the plot right now.
I bought and sold quite a few cars between 2009 and 2015. I bought Saabs, Alfas, my beloved Subaru Brumby, a few more Saabs, and a couple of Porsches.
2009 to 2015, of course, was the GFC and post-GFC world. Times were actually tough for a lot of people, though not so tough here in Australia compared to the rest of the world. Interesting cars were relatively affordable through this period (though air-cooled Porsches were just starting their meteoric rise).
When Covid hit early in 2020, I assumed it’d be another post-GFC scenario. I assumed that people would be struggling for income and looking to sell assets in order to maintain liquidity.
How wrong was I?
The classic car market has gone completely maaaaad! And much of it makes no objective sense.
Case Study 1 – the Porsche 944.
I have a bit of experience with 944s. I looked at several of them in 2013/14, when I ended up buying a 968 ClubSport. I drove nearly all versions – a pre-85 model, a 944 turbo, and a few 944 S2’s. I came very close to buying an S2. The only ones I didn’t test drive were the 16V 944 S from 1987 and any model with an automatic transmission.
The most expensive (at the time) of the three models that I drove was the S2 at A$19,000, closely followed by the turbo at A$17,000. A pre-85 944 was under 12,000. These prices were all quite typical at the time and gave you a decent performance car for good, but not unreasonable money.
Bear in mind that air-cooled 911’s started in the A$15-$20k region back in 2014, usually for a 2.7 because that model had a troublesome reputation. A decent 3.2 911 Carrera from the 1980’s started in the high 20’s. The 944, therefore, was priced as an entry-level Porsche that an enthusiast could get into for $10-$20k rather than putting that money towards a new hatchback.
Hold that thought as we fast-forward to today.
Here’s a Porsche 944 for sale in Australia right now. It’s a 1984 model and it’s the cheapest 944 for sale on the Carsales website right now.
$25,000???
You might think $25K for a Porsche is not too bad. After all, the 944 has a reputation for being a well-balanced package. 50-50 weight distribution. It’s got a robust drivetrain. And it still looks as good in 2022 as it did in 1984.
All of this is true.
BUT (and you knew there’d be a but)….. the 944 from 1984 drives like a dog. And while the outside still looks pretty smart in a retro-cool-pop-up-headlights kinda way, the interior is pure late-70’s-to-early-80’s with all the hard plastics that implies. The 1984 model has the 8-valve engine that drives AND sounds like a tractor. It’s about as responsive as a bookkeeper on a fistful of quaaludes.
At least that one’s a 5-speed manual. The cheapest automatic Porsche 944 on Carsales right now is $35K!! Thirty-five gorillas for that 8-valve engine mated to a 3-speed automatic?????
There’s a reason why these cars were $10K or less, not-so-long ago. And it’s not that they were underappreciated.
For a Porsche 944 to be even close to the base asking prices the model’s fetching these days, it would need to be a 1985.5 model or later – that’s when they got an interior update that brought them closer to their 911 big brother – and it’d have to have the 16-valve engine that debuted with the 944S. An S, S2, or any variants of the 968 are worth considering IF you can get one at a reasonable price.
And 944 turbos? Forget it. I don’t care what sort of smoke Jeremy Clarkson blew up that car’s arse back in the Top Gear days…. it’s just a faster tractor. Eventually. After the lag.
Don’t take my word for it. Drive one for yourself.
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Case Study 2 – Alfa Romeo Sprint.
I’ve owned a couple of Sprints over the years, and had useful custody of another for around 6 months while garaging it for a mate.
You might remember me writing about this one for the US-based Hemmings magazine back in 2015 – Driving a Slow Car Fast
Well, there’s an Alfa Sprint on Carsales right now, too. It’s not just any Sprint, either. I’m about 99% sure that it’s my old Sprint. There are a couple of explainable differences between the old pictures and the new. But I’m pretty sure it’s the same car and the description seems to back that up with it’s references to Tasmania and the car going to an Alfa Club member in Melbourne (exactly my old car’s eventual path).
This is a car that I paid $1,100 for on New Year’s Eve, 2014. I sold it for not much more, a few months later, after I got the job at Koenigsegg and moved to Sweden. It’s definitely been improved since I had it, but they’re now asking $19,990 for it!!!
Now, it must be said that an Alfa Sprint is no dog. A good one is great fun to drive. It’s light, it’s revvy, and at any given moment you could hit something and it’ll fold up like a cheap card table and kill you. That adds a certain thrill-element to every drive.
BUT….. this is a Series 2 Sprint, based on the Alfa 33 chassis. The Series 1 Sprint was based on the AlfaSud chassis and had inboard brakes that lightened the steering with no adverse effects on the handling. It was a remarkably balanced car that loved being driven and it was more fun than a sack full of puppies.
And that’s why Series 2 Sprints were regularly found at $5K and under, not-so-long ago. They’re fun, but they don’t belong in the K category.
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I’m sure I could find a few more examples without too much trouble. The 968 Clubsport I paid $30K for (and sold for the same price in 2014) is now worth $130K. Those $15K 911 2.7’s are now worth $95K.
Am I reading this right? Or should I just stop being a grumpy old man and let supply and demand do their thing?
What say you? Have car prices gone as nuts where you are as they seem to have, here?
and I also wonder who is going to want all these classics into the future of electric dreams and two pedal driver ability
Do you still have all those 99s in a paddock, Bill? They might fund your retirement!!
Not just classics. Bought a new car for lockdown (small city car) and just sold it for what I bought it for. Classics be crazy here too. Lot of liquidity around at the moment.
Also you don’t write, you don’t call and just come back into our lives like nothing happened 😉
Hey Jonathan,
Yes, it’s been a little while. An update with some fill-ins will hopefully be forthcoming soon (well, sooner than 18 months away, which is when the last post was)
Great to read you again Steve and well done on another great piece! I so agree with you and have noticed the same trend here in Ireland. Pre-NG Saabs are not only like hens teeth, available examples IMHO are selling for much more than before and the price don’t necessarily match their condition. I’ve seen late-last production 93s and 95s commanding prices of well over €8k. I was eyeing a ‘93 Audi URS4. Mechanically it seemed sound but the bodywork is in a sad state. It is for sale at €11k and at that price, there are far rarer and better kept cars available. Nothing wrong with dreaming I suppose.
Hopefully those prices become a bit more ‘realistic’ as people set aside their Covid hobbies and go travelling again.
Welcome back Swade!
Wow, things really have changed. I had a look locally, and even MG-Bs are over $20K!
That used to be the typical car that had lost its audience. The only people who wanted them were past retirement age, and most were past driving age. You could get a perfect one for cheap 10 years ago. “Perfect” means “build faults fixed,” it’s all relative.
The quickest car I ever drove was a chipped 944 Turbo. I heard later that it blew its engine, so perhaps the tune was too aggressive.
Regular 944s, however, are heavy and slow. They were the pinnacle of a certain type of car (with the RX-7, Supra, Mustang), but you can tell why the market preferred hot hatches and fast sedans. Hatches were more fun and cheaper, sedans were faster and more practical.
Is it all COVID money? People couldn’t travel or socialize; their money had to go somewhere.
I think you’ve summed it up perfectly, Bernard. The 944 – the best of an objectively mediocre bunch.
I drove one Turbo on the same weekend that I nearly bought an S2. The 8V engine really was painfully apparent. I’d have loved them to do a 16V turbo. That would have set that model alight.
Hello Swade! Nice to see you.
Speaking of mad, here’s listing from Bring a Trailer here in the States.
Granted it’s once in a lifetime opportunity, but boy this is a big number:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1987-saab-900-19/
And from a few months before:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1991-saab-900-spg-7/
Now to be fair, if I had the means, I would have been all in.
That’s crazy talk, all round. Crazy.
Swade! Good to see you mate.
The whole car ecosystem is bonkers these days, classics are up, new cars are rare, used cars are above new retail prices.
Great time to sell a car, horrible time to buy one…. a bit like the real estate market too. Prices up up up!
Agree fully, gone very crazy indeed. But … you look at the vehicle, determine if its really worth that retro reminiscing … the 944 crowd are just pushing the limits based on the 911 crowd + the fact the 924 944 968 have all gone a little crazy in UK , due mainly to the demise of these cars over time due to the old UK grit on roads factor. they become rare due to attrition only not for collectability , which oddly makes them collectable. The Alfa Sprint falls directly into this bucket as well, the only issue is it was never that loved in Australia anyway, so its a hard sell to get these prices. I went and looked at a fully original series 2 Sprint (red) at the Elfin team a little while back, was truly original , feel and smell. I then walked away as I said … been there , done that . I offered $12K , he wanted $13K … which I thought was about right . $19.9K is a tad high , but lets see ……
I’d be far more open to $12K for your old silver one (says the guy who knocked back buying it off you for 6 or so!!)
I owned a 1978 911 Carrera 3 litre in early 80’s with all the bells and whistles in black with ugly black & red trim with air and a sunroof and Simmons BBS wheels with P7’s and I constantly advertised it with a pic in Saturday’s Sydney Morning Herald and got 20 grand for it eventually. That was two grand more than I got for my very rare Detomaso Mangusta a couple of years earlier.
Yes … its scary, the Mangusta , I must have looked at this for sale because at the time I thought ” thats a car to get” … mmm , well I sold a Renault Clio V6 for $68K a few years back and was told by the buyer I just sold the most expensive Clio V6 in the world …. time flies ….
The glory days….
Great blog and interesting topic! It’s true there was a time not long ago when classic cars were good value. You could easily justify picking up something interesting-if-somewhat-ropey for an inconsiderable amount of money, just to play around with or as an alternative to a “modern”. As late as 2016 I picked up a late ’70s Alfetta GTV for $4,000 and happily daily-drove it in Sydney for a couple of years without any problems. Try doing that now!
It does seem to me there’s a combination of a generational shift, coupled with a lack of good cars on the market at the moment. People who wanted these cars when they were younger now have the cash to buy them, and instead of there being ten or twenty examples of any classic to choose from you’re lucky if you’ll find any more than five within a reasonable distance (where have the rest gone??). And when the market is going up it’s not impossible to convince yourself that $120k for a Torana XU-1 seems doable…
But will it last is my question? Will kids who are just starting to learn to drive now actually be interested in cars from the 1960s-80s, or will they regard them in the same way that I think of the rows upon rows of 20s and 30s cars that are invariably encountered in car museums – unloved curios. And will the critical mass of skills and parts required to run a classic be maintained?
Will rising interest rates kill it? The most recent Shannons auction was a bit of a bloodbath, quite possibly for that reason…
In the mid 90’s I picked up an Alfa 33 Clover Leaf sedan dumped behind the Rozelle School/Markets with 50,000k’s on the clock and no rust. It had many parking and speeding tickets in the glove box . I towed it home and all it needed was a clutch slave cylinder and a blue slip for rego. The air con was still freezing cold and I drove it for around five years until it got hit by Sydney’s massive hail storm . I changed its name from Artie to Dimples and sold it to a guy for $800 . Not bad for a car that cost me nothing .
Mmmmmm. I’m a 2x Alfa 33 veteran. Loved them.
Great to see your name appear in the inbox! Couldn’t agree more with your take on classic car values. Here’s one from the US that will stun you. A 1987 Saab 900 Turbo with only 346 original miles on it. Red with tan interior. Sold online for $145,000. No, that’s not a typo. An absolutely perfect car, essentially as new. And I suppose if you ask yourself, where else do I find a 1987 900 Turbo with only 346 miles, this one is the only answer.
Hope all is well with you.
I get it about the high prices in Oz but has anyone tried to restore one lately? Parts and labour costs are very high (and in many cases much higher than the UK for example), even if you do a lot of the work yourself/with like minded friends. Having said that, I agree 911 prices are
very crazy. They are fantastic cars (I have owned one) but very hard to justify even with man maths now.
Hi Steve, Hope you are well. From one GOM to another, remember my dads HT Kingswood that I sold in 2005 for the princely sum of $AUD2,000? Cars in much worse condition today are advertised (stop short of saying sold) for around $AUD 30,000. How did this happen? May we now say vehicle manufacturing in Australia is sadly no more. And may I say that nostalgia and the financialization of housing now with basic housing once being within reach and a safe roof over ones head, has sped up this madness. I mean look at the cost of housing today, old or new we are paying far more than we should be, and half the stock we would not have looked at in 2000.
Hey Richard. Good to hear from you.
Housing is a MASSIVE problem, one that I guess your kids are going through now (or more hopefully, one hurdle that they’ve already cleared). Something’s got to change with housing. When housing is regarded by the government/people as being the number 1 way of accumulating wealth instead of being about shelter, something is very, very wrong.
Agree, housing is a MASSIVE problem globally barring some USA States. Justin is living at home with his mother, no chance of buying…..and Grace moved to Melbourne after completing Uni (STEM degree), working in a testing Lab and renting an apartment in Franklin Street opposite the Markets. Both saving and a long way off owning.😢
Great to receive one of your posts again! Yes, prices are crazy here too but sometimes you win.
I bought a 66K mile SAAB Viggen convertible in late 2013 for $6800 USD. I sold it in the Spring of 2022 with 82K miles. Nine years and 16K miles later, for $10K USD
Not a killer increase like those that you described, but a win none the less.
Glad to see you back!
Yeah. For now. Interest rates and cost of living are both going up, which will certainly make a few over-mortgaged wannabes’ arses twitch. If you can’t afford a +.25% interest hike on your McMansion, there’s no way you can keep your toys.